Remind me Again of How Israel is a "Free Democracy"

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Remind me Again of How Israel is a “Free Democracy”

or, different interpretations of "Free" I guess

By Florida Panhandler

Politics • May 2015 • Views: 1,831

news.yahoo.com

Palestinian? Go ride another bus. We don’t allow your kind here.

….Brown skinned? Darker than the typical Israeli? I suppose you’ll have to find another bus that I suppose is “Separate But Equal .

Please explain how our “friends” like Saudi Arabia and Israel share our values again and are worthy of an alliance and direct military support, and our “enemies” do not share our values? Anyone? …Anyone?

…(crickets),.

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14 comments

CuriousLurker May 20, 2015 12:05:46pm

Ugh, that’s really awful. Looks like Netanyahu suspended it though:

Netanyahu suspends Palestinians-only bus program

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu suspended on Wednesday new bus travel and checkpoint regulations for Palestinian laborers only hours after they were imposed to an outcry by critics accusing Israel of racial segregation.

Effectively overruling his defense minister, Netanyahu froze the edicts ahead of a meeting later in the day in Jerusalem with Federica Mogherini, foreign policy chief of the European Union, a group highly critical of Israeli policies in the occupied West Bank. […]

news.yahoo.com

majii May 20, 2015 1:53:35pm

The only reason Netanyahu suspended the decision was because he didn’t want to deal with the vigorous push-back his party was receiving from citizens. This reminds me of riding in the back of buses in the South when I was a kid. I was a senior in high school before I could ride in any seat on a bus of my choosing, and I was finally able to go into a restaurant and sit at the counter and be served. This also reminds me of South Africa’s horrible history of apartheid. Those who tend to think these separatist policies are A-OK are those who are not affected by them. For those of us who have lived/or are living under them, it’s not only humiliating, it hurts our souls, our psyches, and harms our self-esteem.

Nyet May 21, 2015 12:15:20am

“Remind me Again of How Israel is a “Free Democracy”“

Everything is relative. When I get pissed at something in Israel, I don’t forget to take a look at its neighbors.

Nyet May 21, 2015 12:20:57am

Also, I prefer facts in pages, not unsupported interpretations like:

….Brown skinned? Darker than the typical Israeli? I suppose you’ll have to find another bus that I suppose is “Separate But Equal .

There is enough real racism in Israel (both against Arab and black Israelis), why invent “facts”? The difference here is not the color of skin (in fact, would you be able to tell an average Palestinian from an average Israeli?), but citizenship (or lack thereof). It’s still appalling and xenophobic, but it’s not the same. Israeli Arabs, Ethiopian Jews, etc., are obviously allowed on the buses.

CuriousLurker May 22, 2015 12:15:31am

re: #3 Nyet

“Remind me Again of How Israel is a “Free Democracy”“

Everything is relative. When I get pissed at something in Israel, I don’t forget to take a look at its neighbors.

Saying, “Oh, but look how much more democratic they are than the surrounding autocracies,” is setting the bar pretty low, isn’t it?

Nyet May 22, 2015 4:28:24am

CL, that’s how our world is though. We don’t have any other. Israel fares pretty well not only compared to its immediate neighbors, but also compared to the global average. Esp. if we don’t forget that this page itself is a ridiculous exaggeration, because relatively free democracies can at times be unfair and at times xenophobic (esp. to non-citizens), which doesn’t mean they’re not free democracies overall, unless one has some ideal in mind, in which case there are no free democracies in this world.

Nyet May 22, 2015 4:32:33am

Obviously, my points are not against criticism of Israel. Only against absurd exaggerations and baseless inventions.

CuriousLurker May 22, 2015 7:02:41am

re: #6 Nyet

I agree that’s how our world is, and the hyperbolic nature of the the language being used isn’t helpful as it injects a fallacy of relevance into the argument, but at the same time I can’t even begin to count how often I’ve heard people here talk about two wrongs not making a right.

I would also add that the Palestinians’ status as non-citizens is unique in the world, as far as I’m aware. It’s not as if they’re like other immigrants, legal or illegal, who are somehow foreign to the area (though they are obviously perceived as dangerous & undesirable “others”, hence the xenophobia).

Nyet May 22, 2015 7:45:50am

re: #8 CuriousLurker

Two wrongs don’t make a right, but they sure can be compared. Also, a (quasi-) colonialist state can also be a relatively free democracy inside (if also an asshole outside).

CuriousLurker May 22, 2015 7:56:17am

re: #9 Nyet

Okay, I see what you’re saying now.

Skandal May 22, 2015 5:46:13pm

re: #8 CuriousLurker

Palestinian’s status as non-citizens is not even remotely unique in Israel/West Bank/Gaza.

There’s several million Palestinian refugees in several Arab countries who are denied numerous rights including the ability to apply for citizenship even though they are descendants of several generations who have resided there.

At least 300,000 Palestinian refugees live in Lebanon in what Human Rights Watch calls “appalling social and economic conditions.” They’re blocked from working in a variety of professions, and the Lebanese government has largely resisted granting them broader property rights.

There are even more Palestinian refugees in Syria than Lebanon and their ability to hold or even apply for Syrian citizenship is denied despite their families having resided there, in many cases, since 1948.

An estimated 240,000 Palestinians are living in Saudi Arabia. They are not allowed to hold or even apply for Saudi citizenship.

What is truly unique is the continuing existence of multi-generational Palestinian refugees. Jewish refugees were contemporaneously expelled in greater numbers from Arab countries than the number of Palestinian refugees who fled wars involving Israel. All the Jewish refugees were immediately absorbed into the Israeli populous. With the exception of Jordan (despite still keeping several 100,00 Palestinians in refugee camps with few rights) the number of Palestinian refugees with non-citizenship is far greater in Arab countries than those residing in the West Bank and Gaza. Israeli Arabs (whose numbers exceed a million) have identical rights and citizenship of any Israeli.

The only possible way for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza to receive Israeli citizenship would be if Israel were to annex those territories. That is what’s commonly referred to as the one-state solution. Which is an absolute non-starter for anyone but the most extreme elements. The two-state solution is the only remedy that could possibly work. In which case, the Palestinians will have Palestinian citizenship which they would much prefer, I believe, over Israeli citizenship.

Sorry for the long response.
Regards.

CuriousLurker May 22, 2015 10:05:53pm

re: #11 Skandal

There’s several million Palestinian refugees in several Arab countries who are denied numerous rights including the ability to apply for citizenship even though they are descendants of several generations who have resided the

I’m well aware of this, but as refugees they weren’t originally from those countries. That’s where the difference lies.

What is truly unique is the continuing existence of multi-generational Palestinian refugees. Jewish refugees were contemporaneously expelled in greater numbers from Arab countries than the number of Palestinian refugees who fled wars involving Israel. All the Jewish refugees were immediately absorbed into the Israeli populous. With the exception of Jordan (despite still keeping several 100,00 Palestinians in refugee camps with few rights) the number of Palestinian refugees with non-citizenship is far greater in Arab countries than those residing in the West Bank and Gaza.

How did those Palestinians refugees get to be refugees? What triggered Jewish flight from Arab countries where many of them had lived for hundreds of years or more? Why did Israel accept all those Jewish refugees? These questions are largely rhetorical, but I’d still like to know in what way you think these situations are even remotely analogous.

Also, you cited mentioned Human Rights Watch WRT to the refugees in Arab countries, but you didn’t cite them WRT the West Bank & Gaza—why? Here’s the Israel/Palestine section of their World Report 2015 and here are the 69 pages of results for searching for Israel.

BTW, pointing at how all those Arab countries neglect/reject/abuse Palestinian refugees doesn’t exactly make Israel look good. In what ways does Israel treat them better?

Israeli Arabs (whose numbers exceed a million) have identical rights and citizenship of any Israeli.

In theory, yes. In theory all American citizens have identical rights and citizenship, but as events in Ferguson & elsewhere have proven the reality is quite different. Ditto for the struggle for equal pay, marriage equality, etc. So yeah, nobody is perfect and some are more imperfect than others, but that doesn’t mean criticism is off the table for Israel or anyone else.

For example, what about that “temporary” Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law that was passed in 2003—12 years ago—and expired (again) a couple of weeks ago, on 30 Apr 2015? Was it renewed? Does it disproportionately affect any particular group?

The most significant human rights problems during the year were terrorist attacks against civilians; institutional and societal discrimination against Arab citizens, including the Bedouin, in particular in access to equal education and employment opportunities; societal discrimination against women; and the treatment of refugees, asylum seekers, and irregular migrants.

Other human rights problems included institutional and societal discrimination against non-Orthodox Jews and some minority religious groups, societal discrimination against persons with disabilities and Ethiopian Jews, and labor rights abuses against foreign workers.

Impunity was not a problem. The government took steps to prosecute and punish officials who committed abuses in the country regardless of rank or seniority. […]

state.gov

So officials are prosecuted & punished, but what about regular citizens? Are Jewish citizens who attack Arabs charged & dealt with in the same manner as Arab citizens who attack Jews? In the case of extremists like the Kahanist-inspired Lehava. Will they be classified as a terrorist group like Kach, or allowed to continue? Will it depend on the law or on the politics the next Israeli appointed as the Minister of Defense?

Look, I’ve been doing my homework and could toss all sorts of things out there, but you know full well I don’t run around here constantly criticizing Israel—in fact, I was the first one to comment on this article and note that Netanyahu had suspended the segregated bus rules put in place by the defense ministry. Nonetheless, despite real security concerns I’m still of the opinion that it was a really awful move, full stop.

My positions on things like terrorism, bigotry, and discrimination are well known here, so I don’t feel the need to to preface any criticism of Israel by reciting a litany of sins committed by Arab states or groups. It’s an annoying deflection—a red herring, so to speak.

The only possible way for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza to receive Israeli citizenship would be if Israel were to annex those territories. That is what’s commonly referred to as the one-state solution. Which is an absolute non-starter for anyone but the most extreme elements. The two-state solution is the only remedy that could possibly work. In which case, the Palestinians will have Palestinian citizenship which they would much prefer, I believe, over Israeli citizenship.

I’m well aware of this, but that two-state solution isn’t going anywhere, is it? Netanyahu made that pretty clear. I’m just really sick of the ongoing hostilities. Failure to solve the problem, finger pointing back & forth, or simply building walls & segregating buses so Israelis & Palestinians don’t have to see or interact each other, doesn’t do either side any good. In fact, I think it makes it worse as there are now entire generations of Israelis & Palestinians raised with the hatred & violence the conflict has wrought.

It’s breeding monsters and risks sucking the entire world into its vortex.

As long as you keep a person down, some part of you has to be down there to hold him down, so it means you cannot soar as you otherwise might. —Marian Anderson

This applies to both sides.

Sorry for the equally long counter-repsonse.

Regards.

Skandal May 23, 2015 4:02:37pm

re: #12 CuriousLurker

I realize I’ve opened a huge can of worms. First, to clarify, I agree with you at least 99% of the time on so many issues, including this one. It is nearly impossible to respond to every aspect of this conflict unless you have a few years available to go back-and-forth clarifying and responding to each other’s arguments. However, here’s a brief start:

I’m well aware of this, but as refugees they weren’t originally from those countries. That’s where the difference lies.

By definition refugees are never from those countries where they seek refuge. As was the case with, for just a couple of numerous possible examples, the independence of India and Pakistan (involving 10 times the number of Jewish and Arab refugees did) or the displaced persons situation following WWII (where between 11 million and 20 million people were displaced) these situations involved many millions of people eventually being absorbed into countries they were not originally from.

Those Palestinians refugees got to be refugees the same way the vast majority of refugees throughout history become refugees: War. A war started by Arab countries surrounding Israel in response to Israel’s declaration of independence. The Jewish expulsion from Arab countries, where they had, in fact, resided for a couple thousand years, was triggered by the precise same factor that created the Palestinian refugees. Namely, war instigated by Arab countries against Israel. Several 100 thousand Jewish Arabs were simultaneously attacked and forced to leave their homes and the only country that would accept them was Israel. Israel welcomed them and immediately granted them full citizenship because they were of the same ethnic origin and they had nowhere else to go. Whereas, the Arab countries, that allegedly launched the war on behalf of the Palestinian Arabs, which led to the entire refugee upheaval, have refused to accept their fellow Arabs of the same ethnic origin as citizens (with the partial exception of Jordan).

I was focusing solely on the refugee/citizenship situation. To dissect and debate 69 pages of results, let alone just the 2015 Report, that critique both Israelis and Palestinians from just Human Rights Watch’s perspective would involve several years of back-and-forth. For example, on the very first page of those 69 pages is this article: Human Rights Watch Daily brief November 19, 2014: “There can be no justification for yesterday’s unlawful attack on a Jerusalem synagogue that left five civilians dead and at least six others wounded. Palestinian leaders who believe attacks on Israeli civilians are justified by ‘revenge’ are deeply mistaken. Israel should also realize that responding with excessive force or arbitrary actions, as it has done in other cases, only fuels the cycle of abuses.”

BTW, pointing at how all those Arab countries neglect/reject/abuse Palestinian refugees doesn’t exactly make Israel look good. In what ways does Israel treat them better?

The way in which Israel has accepted refugees and ethnic minorities (definitely, within the green line and even outside it) is arguably extremely better, although far from perfect, than the converse; i.e., how refugees and ethnic minorities have been accepted within Israel’s neighboring countries. Specifically, regarding voting rights, legal rights, property rights, etc.

In theory, yes. In theory all American citizens have identical rights and citizenship, but as events in Ferguson & elsewhere have proven the reality is quite different. Ditto for the struggle for equal pay, marriage equality, etc. So yeah, nobody is perfect and some are more imperfect than others, but that doesn’t mean criticism is off the table for Israel or anyone else.
For example, what about that “temporary” Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law that was passed in 2003—12 years ago—and expired (again) a couple of weeks ago, on 30 Apr 2015? Was it renewed? Does it disproportionately affect any particular group?

Additionally, discrimination against Arabs and other groups is widespread. From the U.S. Department of State’s “Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2013” executive summary (it’s the most recent report available):
The most significant human rights problems during the year were terrorist attacks against civilians; institutional and societal discrimination against Arab citizens, including the Bedouin, in particular in access to equal education and employment opportunities; societal discrimination against women; and the treatment of refugees, asylum seekers, and irregular migrants.

Other human rights problems included institutional and societal discrimination against non-Orthodox Jews and some minority religious groups, societal discrimination against persons with disabilities and Ethiopian Jews, and labor rights abuses against foreign workers.
Impunity was not a problem. The government took steps to prosecute and punish officials who committed abuses in the country regardless of rank or seniority. […]

state.gov

Absolutely. Plentiful criticisms are warranted towards Israeli policies and practices. As is the case with all human related entities and products criticism is not only justified but also desired. That’s the only possible way to progress. Nobody in Israel, with the exception of a minority of delusional, ever claimed Israel is beyond criticism. However, context matters. Sadly, because of a variety of historical and contemporary events there is a great deal of anger and resentment and suspicion that exists on both sides and probably will for generations.

There is no question Israeli immigration policy gives preferential treatment toward certain groups. However, if you examine the policies of most countries (including Japan, Ireland, England, France, Germany, the U.S. etc.) you will find Israel isn’t unique in this respect whatsoever.
Does Israel need to reform its laws and apply them in a non-arbitrary manner? Definitely.

Agreed 100%! Stupidity was the driving force (no pun intended) behind this proposal. Not just because it was terrible P.R. that made Israel look bigoted and discriminatory but more importantly because it would have been inhumane to treat the Palestinians who suffer enormously feel even more degraded and mistreated. It’s not the first time a stupid piece of legislation has been proposed in Israel and probably not the last time. Thankfully, the Israeli Supreme Court has struck down many of these attempts. Thankfully, as well, there are Arab members of the court.

Absolutely, you are indeed accurate in this critique, by and large. On the issue of Palestinian non-citizenship the lack of rights and legal protections outside Israel is also relevant in my view.

I’m well aware of this, but that two-state solution isn’t going anywhere, is it? Netanyahu made that pretty clear. I’m just really sick of the ongoing hostilities. Failure to solve the problem, finger pointing back & forth, or simply building walls & segregating buses so Israelis & Palestinians don’t have to see or interact each other, doesn’t do either side any good. In fact, I think it makes it worse as there are now entire generations of Israelis & Palestinians raised with the hatred & violence the conflict has wrought.
It’s breeding monsters and risks sucking the entire world into its vortex.

I believe Netanyahu was expressing, inelegantly, that he was more pessimistic that a final deal could ever be reached given all the past failed attempts rather than opposing outright the notion of a two-state solution. It will take generations for the animosity to go away. I hope some day it will.

As long as you keep a person down, some part of you has to be down there to hold him down, so it means you cannot soar as you otherwise might. —Marian Anderson

This applies to both sides.

I could not agree more. Beautiful and accurate saying!

Sorry for the equally long counter-repsonse.

I appreciate your very thoughtful response immensely and hope to continue exchanging views when time permits.

All the best and Regards.

CuriousLurker May 24, 2015 12:53:05am

re: #13 Skandal

Thanks for responding

By definition refugees are never from those countries where they seek refuge.

Exactly—I didn’t introduce the term “refugees” into the discussion, you did in your #11. The status of a non-citizen is different from that of a refugee, so I don’t see how they can be compared. The Palestinians in the West Bank & Gaza aren’t refugees from other countries who were somehow foisted on Israel, they are natives of the area.

So they’re not refugees and not citizens, nor are they considered stateless (unlike the 10 million globally who are), which leaves them in a sort of limbo and brings us back to my original statement up-thread:

re: #8 CuriousLurker

I would also add that the Palestinians’ status as non-citizens is unique in the world, as far as I’m aware. […]

I’ve searched in vain to find any other group of people whose situation is analogous. Even the UNHCR no longer takes them into account since the General Assembly recognized Palestine as a state in 2012:

Stateless people are often “excluded from cradle to grave, being denied a legal identity when they are born, access to education, health care, marriage and job opportunities during their lifetime and even the dignity of an official burial and a death certificate when they die,” the UNHCR reports said.

The report does not take the Palestinians into account, since the UN General Assembly has recognized Palestine as a state, Guterres said, adding that this “very specific situation” required a “political solution,” according to AFP. […]

haaretz.com

The report the article above is referring to can be viewed here.

It’s my understanding that while the PA issues passports, they’re of limited use since, for example, the U.S. only recognizes them as travel documents, not as conferring citizenship (because the PA isn’t recognized as a “foreign government”).

The Palestinian Authority (West Bank and Gaza):

Although the United States does not have formal diplomatic relations with the Palestinian National Authority (PA), 9 FAM 41.113 N4.1 states that travel documents issued by the PA meet the definition of a passport. The only legitimate PA passports issued after June 2007 are those issued in Ramallah, Hebron, and Nablus. Any PA passport issued outside of these areas should be considered fraudulent. Regular PA passports have a black cover, are valid for five years, and are machine readable. VIP PA passports have a red cover. […]

Country Specific Footnotes

A. Diplomatic relations not in force. The Department has determined that the Palestinian Authority (PA) is a competent authority for passport-issuing purposes as defined in INA 101(a)(30), but the U.S. does not recognize the PA as a “foreign government”. […]

travel.state.gov

If you know of another group of people whose status is the same or very similar, please let me know so I can correct my previous statement.

I’ll stop there because, as you said, it would take years to discuss all the issues and this point (of non-citizenship) is the thing that stuck in my craw and prompted my original response to Sergey.

Thanks for taking the time to responds. Your responses are always very civil and mesaured, which is something I appreciate very much.

Regards.

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